In this episode of Furry Voices, GFTV chats with Michael and Burger, the co-hosts of the popular podcast Fox and Burger Productions.
Hailing from Texas but currently based in Taiwan, Michael and Burger offer a unique perspective on the furry fandom, as their works bridge the gap between Eastern and Western communities.
Transcript
Pawsry: Welcome everyone! Good morning, good afternoon, good evening to wherever you are now. This is Furry Voices. I’m Pawsry Hamktxchuzhni, with me is DarkBlizz.
DarkBlizz: Hi!
Pawsry: Today we are going to talk with content creators from Taiwan. They are Fox and Burger Podcast hosts, Matcha and Burger!
Michael: Yeah, glad to be here. Also, by the way, my name is Michael, not Matcha; I’m Michael the Matcha Fox. People call me that as a nickname yet I didn’t ask for it. But oh well.
Pawsry: (Chinese: Matcha) lah.
Michael: It’s starting to stick now, you’re gonna like the 10th person who said that. Even people in Taiwan call me (Chinese: Matcha).
Burger: Both Michael and I are not from Taiwan. We were not born here. We just ended up immigrating here.
Michael: Well not immigrate, that kind of seems like a longer, you know, purpose a longer stay at this. We’re both in Taiwan.
DarkBlizz: Oh, from where are you guys originally from?
Michael: We’re from the States. We’re both from Texas. I was not born in Texas, I believe Burger was. I was actually born and raised in Hawaii, then later moved to Texas. But we’re actually both from the Dallas area. And we actually met each other in the Dallas area.
Burger: Yeah, I grew up in a smaller town in the south area of the Dallas metroplex. It’s a little town called Duncanville. And I had some great memories there. But eventually, I moved up to a suburb north, in a more, how do I say it like a more rich neighbourhood? I don’t know. Upper middle class, not rich. Upper middle class. Yeah. But we basically met each other in the Dallas area through the brony fandom.
DarkBlizz: So you guys have been friends, best friends; or friends for a couple of years?
Michael: Yeah, I think that was like maybe 2015, 2016. Maybe even like, maybe 2017? But 2017 is when I left for Taiwan. So like, if we met it was probably like, 2016. Really?
DarkBlizz: Oh, that’s cool.
Michael: We originally met 2016 or something like that. We lost contact, because he went to a different university. And then we sort of like regain contact like 2020 When Burger said that he was either going to go to Taiwan or Thailand to study English.
Burger: Yeah.
Michael: And then I believe, yeah, it was like through Telegram, I believe you messaged me (there). And then we’re just like, slowly talking. And just like, you know, just getting to know more about each other. Especially because like, again, we lost contact.
Pawsry: Nice! I think your response earlier can probably help your audience and our audience; clarify to them that the two of you are not from Taiwan. You’re based in Taiwan.
Burger: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s exactly right.
Pawsry: Yeah, just in case anyone may think it’s something else. But first of all, Michael and Burger, How are the two of you doing?
Michael: I’m feeling okay man! My semester is almost over. I think I’ve got like two to three weeks left. It’s a rainy day here in Taipei, because we have the (Chinese: plum rain) we have the plum; the plum rains, seasonal monsoons. And then most of my classes are online. So I just stayed inside for like, what, like 90% of the day and then here I am doing the interview.
Burger: Yeah, and for me, I have to be the one teaching English online to younger kids. And if you can tell from my voice, my sinuses are congested right now. It kind of sucks that I’m a little bit sick, but at least I’m not spreading this out into the open public.
Pawsry: First of all, Burger, I hope you get well soon.
Burger: Yeah, I do too.
Pawsry: Because having sinus now isn’t a good thing. You know, when you have sinus and you go out, people are gonna be like, “oh COVID!” “Oh, shit. It’s COVID!”
DarkBlizz: You have to take care, man! Because nowadays COVID has been spreading too much. Those with a low chance of getting COVID has already gotten COVID.
So what do you guys do?
Michael: Yeah, so what do I do? This is a great question. I wear many hats. Right now, I am a master’s student here in Taiwan. I’m studying translation. That’s the main reason why I can be some Chinese. I study history back in Texas and I focus a lot on Chinese history.
And then my professors said, “well, if you want to get your PhD in history, then you need to study Chinese. Here’s a scholarship. Apply for National Taiwan Normal University Mandarin Training Center (MTC).” After two years, I came out with some decent speaking ability, writing was still a challenge for me. And then I came back to Texas in like 2019. And that’s when I applied for my masters.
On the side, I do voice acting. I’ve been a voice actor for about five years. I think I have done voices and narrations for Squarespace, NordVPN, Indiegogo, NCH productions. I think I’m in a couple of their videos. Not every single one obviously. Just as a quick addendum, like Burger isn’t the only one that teaches English in Taiwan because I also teach English.
I’m employed by my university as a tutor. And then I also just have my own private students. Oh, and then of course, there’s the podcast. That is why I guess we’re at this interview.
Burger: Right. I am an English teacher. I teach English as a foreign language. That is what my certificate is. Originally I was doing that in mainland China. I did that for one year. I was going to stay there longer. But then my VPN stopped working. So I kind of had to get out of China before I got homesick. And, unintentionally, I also avoided getting COVID!
Pawsry: Ohhhhh!
Burger: Cuz, you know, because that because the time I left mainland China, that was around August, or around the summer of 2019.
Pawsry: (Chinese: That’s called a close call!)
Burger: Yeah! So anyway, I tried to look for more work in the US because I had some teaching experience. So I decided, well, I could try another country.
And that was a fun experience trying to apply and qualify and interview for a job overseas, when COVID comes up and sneaks up and puts everything in lockdown. I’m just glad it’s over with. And it was interesting staying in a quarantine hotel. I don’t want to do it again.
But it was interesting. I hope so. Like, it’s a journey, man. I feel old just saying all that. I feel old. I feel old. Like it’s a journey. No, it’s not like; I’m not … Like I’m not in my early 20s anymore. Like when I first came to Taiwan, I was like in my mid 20s or whatever.
And I was a young fox at the time. But now I’ve gotten older. I feel it in my bones. But I hope that the explanation; hopefully the journey will motivate other people to do something amazing as well.
DarkBlizz: All right, speaking of COVID right, yeah, as we heard from (Burger), COVID has struck you very hard. How did you manage to handle it?
Burger: Well, I would say there are two ways to think about that. First was before I came to Taiwan, and then after I came to Taiwan.
So before I came to Taiwan, it was just a matter of getting all the documents, passport, scan pictures and certifications and everything, and sending (them) to the right people.
But without any physical touch because of COVID. Because the consulate for Taiwan is short staffed due to COVID things were a little bit slower than usual. I feel bad for the poor woman having to deal with eight times more work than usual.
Michael: And like, the date you arrived, this was when Taiwan was very, very strict about being closed, like very few people can get in. It was like the date that the government expects you to arrive. So you couldn’t arrive like, like the day after, even if it was like what, you’re supposed to arrive at 11pm.
And then you arrive at 1am – like they would count that as a separate date. I’m not sure if you would be let in and so I had a very similar problem, like the scheduling and everything. Like I just wanted to just get those dates down. And then I would book my flight. I think you have to get the visa first before you book your flight though.
Burger: Well yeah, that makes sense. Because you can’t just get a visa inside a country before getting there. You would need some sort of landing visa or tourist visa to get in first.
Michael: That’s what we did, to get that landing … the entrance visa. Like you have to apply in Texas first but I think they said they wanted to, I’m not sure what came before the other because we don’t have to get into this but I’m just trying to say like I think we had to get the entrance visa first before we could buy the flight ticket.
Burger: And the other trouble I had before getting to Taiwan was that my flight involved me staying overnight in Japan. And according to Japan at the time, they were not allowing people to stay overnight or staying too long. I essentially lost my flight.
Michael: Yeah.
Burger: And I had to get another one at the airport the day of my flight.
DarkBlizz: Oh my god is there any refund (given), did they change (things) or anything?
Burger: Luckily, I got a rebate from the flight that couldn’t be completed due to COVID. But I did get another flight, thankfully, the day after. Except it made me go through LAX (Los Angeles Intl. Airport). I hate going … I hate LAX so much.
Michael: Mine was also through Nagoya, I think? Is the one in Tokyo Narita?
Burger: Yep, yep.
Michael: Yeah. At that time, you could not stay overnight. You couldn’t stay over for a layover. And the same thing happened to me. I didn’t get a rebate. I actually just got an entirely new flight free of charge.
But yeah, I went through LAX. I paid for like an $11 sandwich like a 10 something dollar sandwich with chocolate milk for like US$13, which is insane. So that’s the California tax for you. And then made my way to Taiwan. And it was a direct flight from LA to Taiwan.
Burger: Wow, you’re, you’re more speedier than I was. I had to go through South Korea to get to Taiwan. But that was okay. Because the South Korean airport, the one in Incheon, is fabulous.
They had what was called a travellers lounge. In that lounge, there was a nap zone. And you can nap there for longer than what someone would reasonably think of as a nap. So I got to “nap” for eight hours during my layover overnight in South Korea.
Michael: Oh, that’s nice, and that’s free for everyone. That’s not like (tiered payment), right?
Burger: Yeah. And the prices were not bad either. I could get a nice bowl of noodles or something for like US$7 or US$8 – much better than LAX. But then after COVID, the only issue there after getting out of the quarantine hotel was just having to wear a mask everywhere making sure you didn’t have a fever, you’re staying clean and not going into too many places where there would be a large group of people gathering.
Michael: Yeah, because at that time in Taiwan wearing masks was actually optional. I remember in 2020, yeah like Taiwan handled it so well that you did not have to wear masks. Well, while going outside. The only exception is public transit. I can’t believe I forgot about that.
Burger: Yeah. And then it went all great until the second wave in 2021.
Pawsry: It’s true. When Singapore had our circuit breaker; where we had that for months, you do not need lockdowns, you do not need any mass control, whatever. But you just immediately shut your borders. And kept everything going.
Michael: Google it. Google Taiwan’s response to COVID. Like, like you find on Wikipedia, you’ll see how good the numbers were. So yeah.
Pawsry: If I checked GFTV FURST’s data right now, if I look especially at that time, how many furry conventions were actually held at that time, that year – 2020?
Michael: I don’t know, like three or four, wasn’t JMoF (Japan Meeting of Furries) held in 2020?
Burger: Yeah, there is JMoF
Pawsry: They delayed their convention two years ahead. Their next edition was 6 – 9 January 2022, which was held.
Michael: Yup, that is correct. I remember that.
Pawsry: FurryJOA, FURMIT (Furry Meeting in Taiwan). Most furry conventions in America completed their things, but more virtual than physical (events).
Burger: Yeah.
Pawsry: So speaking of furry conventions, we talk about guests of honours, experiencing fun dealer’s dens, dance performances, panels, games, meetups, meals, room parties!
Michael: Amen!
Pawsry: All of that!
Burger: Yup, yup!
Pawsry: Guests of honours seem to be a big deal for just about every furry convention, like, what’s the big deal with it ain’t it just someone going there? What’s the value? Even if they are at a furry convention, they represent the fandom in a way; ambassadors.
The two of you are ambassadors yourself because you are one of the guest of honours of PAWAI (Party Along with Furry Indonesia) this year.
Michael: Yeah
Burger: That is correct.
Pawsry: As guests of honour though, first up, is this your first time?
Michael: Yeah, it is definitely my first time.
Burger: Yeah, me too. Definitely the first.
Pawsry: How does it feel like to be a guest of honour?
Michael: I want to say that. Yeah, it really is an honour. I remember getting a text from Churros like March or something like that. And then I was like, oh, man, did I get in trouble?
He is like, how would you like to be one of our guests of honour? I was like, Yeah, sure. I mean, I can’t believe it. And then, I think I jumped for joy. I was like, yeah, I can’t believe I got picked, so that made me very happy.
And then the second thing I want to say, and I’ll hand it over to Burger. The second thing I want to say is that you know this, this is a team effort, right? Like Fox and Burger Productions is a team effort. It’s a collaboration. And you know, I wouldn’t be here without Burger and I wouldn’t even go so far as to say that none of us would be here without each other.
Burger: Yeah, that would be the best way to say it. Neither of us would be here without each other. I have been the one dealing with the more technical stuff like editing, editing the audio, editing it to video and making it YouTube presentable. As well as having separate audio versions for like Spotify and whatever other services we upload to.
Michael has been the one who has been doing most of the networking. We both brainstorm and discuss a lot about certain things for the podcasts. And we’ve gotten help outside from people that we trust as well. But I think he’s been the bigger brains for the podcast.
Michael: I do like the logistic stuff, like, how do we organise these interviews, how do we structure them, networking, frontman like social media manager. So like, I write like 90% of the posts on Twitter.
I think I’ve been like the main manager on YouTube, but there’s not much to manage there. Like I look at the comments or sometimes respond to them. And I always like to look out for guests. And I always like to try to network.
Burger: Yeah, yeah, we really feed off each other and really work together very well. The fact that we both got picked to be guests of honour was like that little fluttering in my heart; that smile was just so big.
It’s like, oh, gosh I think we did it. I think we made it now! We are now guests of honour you know! I feel like after this, we’re gonna have a great boost and more people are going to know about the Eastern side of the furry fandom which is always good!
Pawsry: Perseverance is a very powerful thing. I don’t think even ourselves may be able to grasp it completely. Your eyes, whether Asian eyes or not; you still can see the lesson to be learnt out of it. It is worth passion, dedication, and also a heart to serve your community, kind of thing.
Michael: I think community comes first for us. I feel like the podcast was never really about us. I think we’re just like the mouthpiece in a way. I think we’re just the medium. It’s us capturing those moments, those stories, those experiences and then yeah, we just show it to other people. I feel like it always starts with the guests first. It never, it never was about us.
Burger: Yeah, that’s why we bring such interesting guests as well. We bring fursuiters from Malaysia and Indonesia; convention organisers from Japan and other places; and then we bring in just anyone who has made a big difference in the Asian community.
Pawsry: It’s one big way that the two of you are really doing because for a lot of Americans or Western furries they still have a lot of questions about Asian furry fandom. I have talked to a lot of Americans.
They have furry conventions in China, furries exist in China, and they can move freely. They had a lot of questions. They thought China didn’t have any furries – zero – as they thought.
Burger: Yeah, I mean, the reason for that is just from how blocked off the Chinese public is from the rest of the world through the government firewall. I never got to meet the Chinese furry fandom until I actually went to China to teach English.
It wasn’t as full of an experience as it was when I was in Taiwan. Because when I was in mainland China, my Chinese was way worse than it was than it is now. But I still feel like because Taiwan has a greater access to the internet than mainland China then I guess their presence is (thus) more known to the world.
Pawsry: I really testified to the kind of things that the two of you mentioned. For me when I connected to China, it actually surprised me that they know a lot about furries outside (the firewall)! I found a lot of furries working to translate external content and put it into Chinese platforms.
As GFTV grew, and we got more popular, I started to realise we became one of those platforms to bring foreign content into China. Furries are one community. There are places where they are not that connected. So for us content creators, we sort of have a duty to connect Chinese furries to the global one.
Michael: I think your media production and our content is, I think, this is where we have like the exact same overlap where we view ourselves as a bridge. Like Fox and Burger Productions is more like a bridge, bridging East and West.
That’s really our main goal, right? Like we want to show the Western world like what there is to offer in Asia. And so like, yeah, I would say you and I are doing roughly the same thing.
Burger: That’s kind of how I felt when I helped convince Michael to bring in some mainland Chinese furries onto the podcast as well. Like we’ve had Simone, Leola and his girlfriend. I’m sorry, I’m forgetting her name right now.
Michael: Yuho, Yuho right there?
Burger: Yeah Yuho, thank you.
Michael: Yeah
Burger: I think if I hadn’t done that, mainland Chinese furries would still be kind of a mystery to the rest of the world. I mean, I’m not sure how many people in the West have seen our videos on the mainland Chinese furries. But hopefully we’ve helped give some insight.
Pawsry: I think we’ve shown another point: Building bridges is not political. No matter how much the firewall may be closely associated with politics and whatever that China vs. US thing is now. It’s not political to build bridges.
Encourage dialogue. We share ideas, we understand each other. That advances civilization. In the end no matter how much we don’t want to talk with each other because of some preconceived notions, we still have to talk in the end. Building bridges is one way to open doors; people are just not doing that currently.
And being guest of honours, is something like, you have to represent the fandom. In a way, you’re contributing to the furry fandom. In your opinion, how are guests of honour important to the furry community?
Michael: I think the idea of GOHs, it’s important, but probably not as important as you think. Because I think it’s nice that you get the recognition and I think it’s nice that you are honoured for your contribution to the fandom. But at the end of the day, I’m still a human being, like I eat, poop and sleep.
I don’t think that has ever changed ever since, you know, it was announced that we became GOHs. I do think that yeah, you, in a sense, do represent the fandom. I don’t think just because you’re elevated to being a GOH doesn’t make you that different or that important from the other people out there.
Burger: Yeah, I think the GOHs, and the artists and musicians or whatever was someone or some group that the people running an event decided would be the best people to represent the furry fandom at that event.
Well, it doesn’t mean they’re superhuman. It just means they really stand out. And they’re someone to aspire to. And having someone to aspire to definitely brings in a lot more sorts of good things to help drive the community forward in one way or another.
Michael: Yeah, if you’re Jewish, you probably have your own Jewish panel where you can talk about your journey and the things you do and maybe that inspires other people. So yeah, there’s also that.
Pawsry: That’s some insight! I think guests of honours are like you are honoured, but that doesn’t make you suddenly become King Bhumibol Adulyadej, I guess. Maybe these are role models.
Michael: Yeah, I think respect is earned, respect is earned. I think people honour you, right? You can’t buy this kind of thing. If you chase clout (and) you chase these kinds of things, you’ll never achieve it.
Pawsry: Yeah, because a lot of people associate being a guest of honour with clout; something to get popular very fast only.
Burger: And that’s why I brought up inspiration. Exactly.
Pawsry: In the end, you’re still furries. We are still one community. With all the influence that you’ve got, the followers, it’s not yours. It’s something like, let me quote … what’s the name of the guy who owns Alibaba? Ma Yun?
Michael: Ma. Well, in English, we’ll call him Jack Ma, right? Yeah, like Ma Yun in Chinese.
Pawsry: I’m going to quote him. “If you earn a million dollars, that million dollars is not yours. It’s the amount of money that society entrusts in you to do something to better this society.”
It is relatable. And talking about Eastern and Western (sides) though, the two of you are this bridge, as I’ve mentioned earlier. So, Blizz – I think has something to ask you about that.
DarkBlizz: Yes. What are the similarities? Or the differences between the two?
Pawsry: Yeah, like the difference between the Eastern and Western furry fandoms as according to the two of you.
Michael: This is a great question. And it’s such a big question like Burger, do you want to take this first because I actually feel like I still have to think.
Burger: There are different concepts of what furry is, depending on where you go. This is what I said to Churros for PAWAI as well. I basically told him that in the Western furry fandom, furry is a way to take out whatever is inside your heart and then just rip it out and show people.
Michael: Watch the podcast!
Burger: In the Eastern furry fandom it’s more like, I want to put on a character I want to be something different than what I am. Part of that can be self expression. But for the most part, it’s just, this is my character, or this is my child.
And sometimes even there will be an artist that just has a preset character. And then someone will bid on those characters. And for the final winner of that bid,that is their character now. Now I’m not saying the Western fandom is only about self expression. And the Eastern fandom is only about putting on a character. There are different scales to those.
Michael: You know, I’m actually kind of surprised by the similarities in the fandom. If you say everyone is the same, then I feel like that doesn’t speak enough to the uniqueness of that person or their culture. I’ve come across several Taiwanese and Japanese furries.
And I always feel like in these cultures, there is a culture of indirectness. I feel like there’s like this extra layer of this sort of like, indirect speech, from their source culture. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. It’s … that’s something that’s really different from where I grew up, which is the idea of being “direct”, like honest; say how you feel.
Pawsry: You really remind me of … yes, that Japanese furry infographic, the fursona difference. The fursona in Western fandoms is part of themselves or is themselves. In the Eastern side, especially in the kemono area, it’s a separate entity. I guess maybe for example, your soulmate. I don’t know, like you watch those cartoons where this character is always following the protagonist.
Michael: Yeah. I have seen that.
Pawsry: So linking from this, thanks for your insights. I believe it really helps the audience understand the Asian fandom.
Michael: The podcast has been going on, believe it or not, for like a year and a half. So closing on two years. It’s still a question we’re asking, you know, like, there’s still plenty of people to interview, there’s still plenty of people to know. I don’t know if we’ll ever get to the bottom of the question but I think it’s worth asking and worth exploring. Yeah.
DarkBlizz: All right. I think overall for that, there is like this East and West divide in the world today. So from there, how do you feel your furry community can better move forward?
Michael: Yeah, I think there is an East and West divide. I think Pawsry probably talked about US and China relations. But I don’t think that this divide is actually as big or as antagonising as you’re led to believe. I think cultural differences are a thing. Different political factions are a thing. I think language barriers are a thing.
But I also believe that we live in a very globalised and interconnected world. There’s more to explore by being connected and friendly rather than being antagonistic. I feel that most of the furries I talked to and befriended are, they’re relatively apolitical, or they know better than to engage in politics. We don’t talk about this divide. And we all kind of just get along, I feel.
Burger: I think you bring up a decent point about … I think ever since the Internet kind of sprung open, and to the greater public, it’s just giving people more and more insight about the broader world around them. I mean, in a way, with the furry fandom being a reflection of the greater human populace those open arms are just always there.
Pawsry: Honestly, thank you all so much. I think this interview is a big learning point for us. It’s amazing to hear from you, Burger and Michael.
Michael: Yes, sir!
Pawsry: It’s such a pleasure to talk with two people who are also making an effort to build bridges in Asia and with the world as well.
Michael: Yeah, if we ever see you like next year actually in-person. Like if that actually does work out, I mean, we can hang out and chat. I want to get my kopi c and teh tarik.
Pawsry: Yeah! I wish y’all good luck with your podcast. I wish y’all stay safe, stay happy.
Michael: Yes, same to you man, same to you!
Burger: Check out Fox and Burger on Twitter. We’re on Spotify and Google Podcasts. We are Fox and Burger Productions on YouTube. So check that out as well! Fox and Burger on Twitch.
Pawsry: And well, that officially concludes our latest instalment of Furry Voices with Fox and Burger Podcast hosts Michael and Burger. Have a great and wonderful, floofy day!
Michael: Thank you guys for listening!
Global Furry Television 